Episode 49: Key strategies for selling to banks with Dan Ilett of Tollejo

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to New Era FinTech Podcast. Today we're back on the topic of

[00:00:05] selling, selling, selling, selling and FinTechs selling to banks. That is a topic

[00:00:09] and I bring you today Dan Islet of Tilesia. Dan, welcome. Hello. No, thanks for

[00:00:16] the whole other Dan because I've managed to snare Dan for many of the

[00:00:21] financial technology companies who are struggling with sales and just this

[00:00:26] week I have met with three FinTechs. Each of them have not had a proper meeting,

[00:00:33] like a physical meeting with one of their target banks this last quarter in Q1.

[00:00:38] So I reached out to Dan and said please, please, please come and talk to me for

[00:00:43] these FinTech especially the BizDev, the sales directors, the

[00:00:51] SDRs on techniques, methodologies and approaches to getting out there in

[00:00:56] market. So there's an overview on this episode. Dan, start us off by who are you

[00:01:01] and what's your background and then we'll get into Tilesia and then these

[00:01:04] sales and marketing techniques. Okay so we obviously met when I was

[00:01:10] still a journalist. I just started media training. I think you were my first

[00:01:14] client. That's right. And we got into this conversation. So I was

[00:01:20] writing for lots of different publications but I was freelance. I was

[00:01:22] doing a ton of stuff for the FT at the time and people were starting to ask me

[00:01:25] to do media training which is basically where you teach people how to get

[00:01:30] through interview scenarios and get their message across in various

[00:01:33] different scenarios. It might be for trade press, it might be for national,

[00:01:36] it might be for TV. And I guess from there we got talking about how

[00:01:42] to build community because you were already growing and building. It was

[00:01:46] SMS tech's news and I think that's it. And I was thinking of building

[00:01:50] something in the sustainable technology space but I wasn't quite sure how. I

[00:01:53] was looking at different CMSs and anyway, long story short we went for a

[00:01:57] milkshake and over a weekend we built this new publication called GreenBang

[00:02:02] which it turned into over the course of a couple of years I guess quite a

[00:02:06] large community, quite a large blog research company on sustainable

[00:02:11] tech which at the time was like 2007 right? It was quite ahead of its

[00:02:17] time but a little bit too far ahead of the market to actually make the most

[00:02:20] of what the opportunity I would say. And at the same time I was media

[00:02:25] training people backing things with that I was noticing that the execs from

[00:02:28] the tech companies who were coming to me were having a really big

[00:02:32] problem in telling their story. They couldn't articulate what they

[00:02:36] did. They could tell you what their name was, what their job title

[00:02:38] was but actually what's the value of what you do, how are you different?

[00:02:41] It was really hard for them to talk about. So I realized it wasn't a

[00:02:43] media problem, it was a cultural company problem and the way that a lot of

[00:02:48] tech companies go to market is very similar to the next one. And so what

[00:02:52] the customer actually sees on the other side is a bunch of guys who

[00:02:55] all look the same who all say the same thing. It's really hard

[00:02:58] to differentiate between them and it comes down to that sort of

[00:03:01] relationship based stuff and if you can get there. And so I started

[00:03:06] like playing with the idea of what's the most important piece of

[00:03:11] paper I could write as a journalist? What's the most valuable

[00:03:14] piece of paper I could write as a writer for a company? And it's the

[00:03:18] executive summary of a really high value bid I sort of worked out and

[00:03:20] I thought, okay, so what are the most valuable bids that are going

[00:03:24] on? The most valuable deals in London at the moment. And I got

[00:03:28] to the point, I got to the point of realizing it was

[00:03:30] probably some of the big transformation deals that were going

[00:03:33] across the tables with the banks, with the, you know, the

[00:03:35] consultancies. You know, these are sort of anywhere from 100

[00:03:38] million upwards, you know, huge, huge deals that lasted years

[00:03:42] with tons of people on them as well. And yet you'd listen to

[00:03:46] the pitches, you read the executive summaries and you

[00:03:48] would think they're worth a lot less given the way they

[00:03:53] would present them, the way they would talk and

[00:03:55] communicate and actually how the tiny bit of effort they put

[00:03:59] into what the customer heard versus what they wanted to

[00:04:02] say. Right. And that's the big difference, I suppose is, I

[00:04:05] think, you know, I think with all of, with journalism, with

[00:04:10] building communities, with writing, you know, executive

[00:04:13] summaries, most people in tech companies tend to write what

[00:04:18] they want people to hear, you know, here's your list of

[00:04:19] features, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to jam it

[00:04:22] in your company and you're going to get that. And

[00:04:24] actually, what does the CEO want to see? The CEO wants

[00:04:27] to see confident capable, great people smart enough to

[00:04:31] deliver who actually know what they're doing. And there's

[00:04:33] proof that they know what they're doing. And they've got a

[00:04:35] great story. And they're going to talk to me in a way that I

[00:04:38] can understand and they'll shake my hand, look me in the

[00:04:40] eye and say yes. And, and the executive summary needs to

[00:04:43] exude that as well. So all of these things started to

[00:04:46] come to fruition around about the same time as I was

[00:04:49] building communities into the digital space. And also

[00:04:52] having all these realizations that basically

[00:04:54] traditional B2B sales is quite transactional. Everyone

[00:04:57] talks about relationships, but it's really not a user

[00:05:00] experience isn't considered at all. So that's sort of how

[00:05:03] we got to know each other and things kind of went from

[00:05:06] there really.

[00:05:07] Can I can I challenge you there to say so I hear you and I

[00:05:11] understand what you're saying, but I think a lot of

[00:05:14] a lot of those listening and watching will understand

[00:05:17] understand what you're saying but say, yeah, no, no,

[00:05:21] I'm trying to sell to this bank or this big corporate

[00:05:25] and I needed to buy it. Right? I don't want to hear

[00:05:28] about communities. I don't want to hear about stories and

[00:05:30] pictures and the stuff the market the hygiene that

[00:05:33] the marketing stuff do. Yeah, I need to sell that. That's

[00:05:38] what I do. I worry that some individuals are switching off

[00:05:42] when you're saying that say say more on that.

[00:05:45] You know, it you got a broad church here we're

[00:05:49] talking about, you know, and there's a very big

[00:05:51] effort to actually get these deals over the line. It's

[00:05:54] not just one of while it comes down to one or two

[00:05:56] people who make the decisions you have a

[00:05:58] relationship getting there. It can be quite difficult

[00:06:01] unless you've got a community of people who already

[00:06:04] know each other, right? So there's a whole piece of

[00:06:07] work that goes behind the brand positioning and

[00:06:10] often, you know, the big tech companies have great

[00:06:11] brands. They wouldn't be where they are without

[00:06:13] them. But when it comes down to the actual

[00:06:15] delivery of the local team, they do not reflect

[00:06:18] that global brand, you know, image they don't

[00:06:20] reflect that global brand power. And then on

[00:06:23] the other side on the flip side, you know,

[00:06:26] you've got these brands that are not known about

[00:06:28] that have got this incredible capability, but

[00:06:30] they have not put the time into engagement. They

[00:06:32] have not put the time into building the brand,

[00:06:35] getting the position right, getting known about

[00:06:37] before they walk in the door. And I think

[00:06:39] getting known before you walk in the door is

[00:06:41] one of the most important things you can do

[00:06:44] in this space and it takes time. There is no

[00:06:46] silver bullet to it.

[00:06:48] Right, say more on that, right? Because I'm

[00:06:51] interrupting them because I am running through

[00:06:54] the conversations of these sales directors

[00:06:58] and Bizdev in FinTech that was it. Yes, yes,

[00:07:01] yes. Cold calling still works.

[00:07:05] Right, and this is what an argument I've been

[00:07:06] having regularly. And I've actually had to

[00:07:08] adjust a lot of my workshop content.

[00:07:11] So, okay, maybe, maybe, maybe, right?

[00:07:14] Yeah, X percent. But there's still this

[00:07:17] mindset that marketing gives us the leads.

[00:07:21] And then down we don't need all your

[00:07:22] messaging and we just have to sell that.

[00:07:24] We just have to sell.

[00:07:25] Well, let's look at why, you know, B2B,

[00:07:29] or just businesses buy anything, right?

[00:07:31] They buy things for three reasons.

[00:07:33] One is because they want to grow their

[00:07:35] business and they want to be more

[00:07:36] competitive and they want competitive edge,

[00:07:38] right? That's agility. And the C level

[00:07:41] are very interested in that because

[00:07:42] they're measured on that and they're

[00:07:44] bonus on that, right? How can we be

[00:07:46] more competitive?

[00:07:48] The second reason is risk. How can we

[00:07:49] keep the lights on and keep running

[00:07:52] more efficiently, more effectively

[00:07:53] and sort of better, you know, with

[00:07:55] better levels of risk management

[00:07:56] and insight and, you know, optimum

[00:07:58] risk performance? That's the sort

[00:08:01] of like, that's the risk guys and

[00:08:02] operations guys and levels down who

[00:08:05] are in charge of those things.

[00:08:06] And the third reason is cost.

[00:08:09] Companies buy things to be cheaper.

[00:08:10] You know, they want, you know,

[00:08:12] do they need to buy scissors at

[00:08:13] this price or scissors at that

[00:08:14] price? They'll go for, you know,

[00:08:16] if it doesn't matter what the

[00:08:17] product is, they'll buy at the

[00:08:18] cheapest price.

[00:08:19] They buy things on for three

[00:08:20] reasons. There's three drivers for

[00:08:22] buying anything.

[00:08:24] So for scissors, yeah, you can

[00:08:26] call up and go, yeah, I've got,

[00:08:27] you know, I've got these scissors

[00:08:29] and they cost 10 P each.

[00:08:30] You're paying a pound. I can get

[00:08:31] them cheaper. Brilliant. We'll have

[00:08:32] that conversation.

[00:08:34] If you're trying to take a company

[00:08:36] to, you know, grow its customer

[00:08:37] base by, I don't know, like 50%

[00:08:40] over the next two years.

[00:08:42] And in order to do that, you've

[00:08:43] got to A, change the way you

[00:08:45] talk about your product, B,

[00:08:46] refine the product so it's more,

[00:08:47] you know, it's more cutting edge

[00:08:48] better for the customer and see,

[00:08:50] you know, we need systems and

[00:08:52] processes and people and training

[00:08:53] in place to do all those things.

[00:08:55] You're not doing that on a cold

[00:08:56] core, right? Right. That's not

[00:08:58] happening on a cold core. Yes.

[00:08:59] So your transactional sales

[00:09:01] crack on, right? Keep going with

[00:09:03] your cold emails, keep going with

[00:09:04] your cold sales. Those techniques

[00:09:05] tend to work in scenarios

[00:09:07] where people are just looking

[00:09:09] for very, you know,

[00:09:11] transactional details.

[00:09:13] Right. But when it comes to

[00:09:14] value and things that are really

[00:09:16] going to shift the needle for the

[00:09:17] sea level, no, cold

[00:09:19] cores are not going to work.

[00:09:20] Not they might you might get

[00:09:21] lucky here and there.

[00:09:23] But you need you need a whole

[00:09:24] campaign to run at those things

[00:09:26] and you need to get noticed.

[00:09:27] And it's actually, you know,

[00:09:29] this is where the power of the

[00:09:30] press is so useful.

[00:09:31] You know, third party

[00:09:32] validation, community

[00:09:34] validation, peer validation,

[00:09:36] analyst validation, those

[00:09:38] things really stand up, but

[00:09:40] they're not going to happen next

[00:09:41] week. You need to really plan

[00:09:42] them and work on them and,

[00:09:43] you know, and go over them

[00:09:44] over a course of months.

[00:09:46] How do you how do you

[00:09:48] handle that dialogue then

[00:09:51] when when you've got the

[00:09:54] the sales director, the marketing

[00:09:55] director in some cases

[00:09:57] either at each other's throats

[00:09:59] or collaborating, right?

[00:10:01] But, you know, a lot of

[00:10:02] marketing I see being done

[00:10:05] doesn't seem to be yet.

[00:10:06] They're building a brand, but

[00:10:07] they're doing so by buying

[00:10:08] Google ads, some LinkedIn

[00:10:11] videos and a white paper.

[00:10:13] Like it looks like they're

[00:10:14] doing an MBA, you know,

[00:10:16] version of building a brand.

[00:10:18] And then, you know, so there's

[00:10:19] a brand and a website over here

[00:10:21] and then the salespeople are

[00:10:22] adrift over here.

[00:10:25] No one knows what they're

[00:10:25] saying and not quite sure.

[00:10:27] You know, often when I'm

[00:10:28] sitting down and saying, what

[00:10:29] is it your tech does?

[00:10:30] They say, oh, it's cloud.

[00:10:32] What cloud banking?

[00:10:34] Right. What?

[00:10:35] Yeah. And like everyone's

[00:10:37] doing cloud banking, right?

[00:10:38] Everyone's, you know,

[00:10:38] everyone's doing AI now, right?

[00:10:40] Everyone's, you know, so

[00:10:41] blah, blah, blah, like, OK,

[00:10:42] so what?

[00:10:45] I think there's a couple of

[00:10:46] things to note here.

[00:10:47] I think we're just talking

[00:10:49] B2B, right? Right.

[00:10:50] Yeah. So.

[00:10:53] Things have shifted in the last

[00:10:54] four years several times every

[00:10:55] year in marketing.

[00:10:56] If you, you know, you kind

[00:10:57] of know that the goalposts are

[00:10:59] going to change.

[00:11:00] People are going to be into

[00:11:01] digital. People are going to

[00:11:02] be into events.

[00:11:02] People are going to be into apps.

[00:11:04] People are going to be whatever

[00:11:04] it is, the trend changes and

[00:11:06] the way people engage changes.

[00:11:09] This year it's events because

[00:11:10] everybody's gone back into,

[00:11:11] you know, cities, towns and

[00:11:13] they all want to see each other

[00:11:14] again.

[00:11:15] Digital marketing has really

[00:11:18] had a hard time in terms of

[00:11:19] delivering for people.

[00:11:21] If you're talking about B2B

[00:11:22] though, I mean, most B2B

[00:11:24] companies, 20 percent

[00:11:26] of the client base pays,

[00:11:28] you know, is account, your

[00:11:29] accounts are about 80 percent

[00:11:30] of the revenue typically.

[00:11:32] Right. Or there's a minority

[00:11:33] of clients that account for

[00:11:34] the majority of revenue.

[00:11:35] Yes. And that's the case,

[00:11:37] you know, across the board

[00:11:38] and that's an incredibly,

[00:11:40] first of all, that's an

[00:11:40] incredibly risky position to

[00:11:42] be in. Right?

[00:11:43] So if you're a private equity

[00:11:44] investor, they don't like that,

[00:11:45] especially when the sales team

[00:11:47] there's one or two superstars

[00:11:48] that kind of hold all the

[00:11:49] relationships and so on.

[00:11:52] So that's the first thing to

[00:11:53] note. The second thing to

[00:11:54] note is as we said, you know,

[00:11:55] things are shifting and

[00:11:57] therefore, you know, the

[00:11:58] modes and the tides have

[00:11:59] shifted and you need to keep

[00:12:00] your eye on that.

[00:12:02] But I think the third thing

[00:12:02] here is that in B2B

[00:12:05] you've got a lot of people who

[00:12:06] tend to forget about

[00:12:09] the fact that they only need

[00:12:10] 50 clients or even 20

[00:12:12] clients, even 10 to

[00:12:14] make it work.

[00:12:15] Yes. And they go to the lengths

[00:12:17] of spending 100 grand on

[00:12:19] Google Ads a month, you know,

[00:12:22] 30 grand on a PR company

[00:12:24] a month to go and do XYZ

[00:12:27] when actually, you know,

[00:12:28] the customer's business

[00:12:29] and the customer's office is

[00:12:30] about 100 meters away from

[00:12:32] them. And they even in many

[00:12:33] cases, they know the names

[00:12:35] of the targets.

[00:12:36] Right.

[00:12:37] So I think common sense

[00:12:40] has to come into this in

[00:12:42] some way and, you know,

[00:12:44] and you have to sort of get to

[00:12:45] the point of going, right,

[00:12:46] what if we're going to talk

[00:12:47] to this person that we

[00:12:48] desperately want to talk to

[00:12:49] and we've kind of put in a

[00:12:50] pedestal and this of God of

[00:12:51] the industry in our eyes.

[00:12:53] How do we actually get a

[00:12:54] sensible conversation with them

[00:12:56] where they're going to

[00:12:56] listen? Or more importantly,

[00:12:58] how can we listen to what

[00:12:59] they want?

[00:13:00] And it's getting in

[00:13:02] the room, you know,

[00:13:03] right. And I think

[00:13:05] you could do all of these

[00:13:06] things and you wouldn't get

[00:13:08] that person in the room that,

[00:13:09] you know, the goal really,

[00:13:10] your KPIs get that person

[00:13:12] in the room. Right?

[00:13:13] Yes. That's number one.

[00:13:15] And so like whatever needs to

[00:13:16] be true to do that is my

[00:13:18] answer. I don't think there's

[00:13:19] because you're talking about

[00:13:19] different companies or

[00:13:20] different things, etc.

[00:13:22] You've got, you know,

[00:13:22] different ways of marketing.

[00:13:24] You know, you're speaking

[00:13:25] my language here because this

[00:13:26] is what I've been hammering

[00:13:28] on. Like I'm no,

[00:13:29] no experienced dude in this at

[00:13:30] all. The only thing I've

[00:13:32] been saying is just get in

[00:13:32] the room, get in the room.

[00:13:34] But I think it's really,

[00:13:36] I wonder how those watching

[00:13:38] and listening, especially those

[00:13:39] responsible for sales,

[00:13:40] bizdev.

[00:13:41] You know, I think they go,

[00:13:42] OK, Dan, you're right.

[00:13:44] I'm trying to emulate them.

[00:13:45] OK, OK, right.

[00:13:46] So get in the room. Yes.

[00:13:47] How do I do that?

[00:13:49] I mean, there's a lot of

[00:13:50] different ways to do that.

[00:13:51] But the number one thing

[00:13:53] I would, in fact, I see a

[00:13:54] number of things, right?

[00:13:55] Right, go.

[00:13:57] God, I could go on all day

[00:13:58] about this.

[00:14:00] So.

[00:14:01] Marketing and sales.

[00:14:03] When you get to those big bids

[00:14:04] and the point that, you know,

[00:14:05] people are going to sell

[00:14:06] something, the marketing team

[00:14:07] aren't really in with that.

[00:14:08] And yet the marketing team

[00:14:10] are inevitably the people that

[00:14:11] produce the nicest looking

[00:14:13] content, the stuff that really

[00:14:15] engages people. They think in

[00:14:16] they think in terms of

[00:14:17] headlines, they think in

[00:14:18] terms of grabbing attention.

[00:14:20] The sales teams aren't thinking

[00:14:21] that they're thinking, how do

[00:14:22] we sell this thing?

[00:14:23] How do we get the money?

[00:14:24] How do we make the deal?

[00:14:25] How do we get the transaction

[00:14:26] done?

[00:14:27] Now, the smart ones are going,

[00:14:28] how do we solve the problem?

[00:14:29] How do we speak the language?

[00:14:30] But even then it's still at a

[00:14:32] level that's really hard to

[00:14:34] ensure you're going to engage

[00:14:35] those people. So the first thing

[00:14:36] is, I think, you know, getting

[00:14:38] the marketing team more involved

[00:14:39] in the sales and the sales more

[00:14:41] involved in the marketing is

[00:14:42] hugely important.

[00:14:43] And they tend to when things

[00:14:45] don't work, they just blame

[00:14:46] each other, right? You see the

[00:14:47] old time all the time.

[00:14:49] Yeah. What's a marketing

[00:14:50] qualified lead? What's the

[00:14:50] sales qualified lead? All

[00:14:51] this sort of stuff.

[00:14:52] And where it where it goes

[00:14:54] to is people start blaming

[00:14:55] CRM.

[00:14:56] And the number of times I've

[00:14:57] seen, I mean, I've written

[00:14:58] article about it yesterday,

[00:14:59] you know, the company,

[00:15:01] a company will have 50,000

[00:15:02] leads or companies of people

[00:15:05] that are signed up to learn

[00:15:06] more about that company in

[00:15:07] its CRM and they don't talk

[00:15:09] to them. They don't engage

[00:15:11] them. They don't send an email

[00:15:12] out. And if they do, it's

[00:15:13] really transactional.

[00:15:15] They're not thinking

[00:15:16] segmentation. They're just

[00:15:17] thinking blast messages

[00:15:19] out. And really what

[00:15:21] you know, what you have to

[00:15:23] be very careful of is

[00:15:25] not pissing people off with

[00:15:27] that, either by ignoring them

[00:15:28] or sending them the wrong

[00:15:29] stuff.

[00:15:30] You know, there's a zen like

[00:15:31] focus that you need on every

[00:15:32] if they're valuable customers

[00:15:34] and you value them, it's

[00:15:36] more important to listen to

[00:15:37] them and to shout at them.

[00:15:38] And I think giving them the

[00:15:39] opportunity to engage and to

[00:15:41] listen and to get involved.

[00:15:43] That conversation

[00:15:45] however it's driven tends to

[00:15:47] be focused on CRM, but it's

[00:15:48] not really CRM. It's teamwork

[00:15:50] that drives that. Right?

[00:15:51] It's a common view of the

[00:15:52] pipeline, which a lot of

[00:15:54] companies don't have even

[00:15:55] though they're successful.

[00:15:56] I'm really astonished.

[00:15:57] I see this a lot as well.

[00:15:58] Right. The marketing team

[00:15:59] sitting over there, you know,

[00:16:00] on cloud nine delighted by the

[00:16:02] new website they delivered.

[00:16:03] Right. And it's lovely.

[00:16:05] The sales team is sweating

[00:16:06] kidneys, trying to get

[00:16:09] someone to respond, you know,

[00:16:11] so they can sell them something.

[00:16:13] Yeah. And I think, you know,

[00:16:14] the marketing team, I mean,

[00:16:16] you know, they do a good job

[00:16:17] right. And they'll be doing

[00:16:18] what they've been told to go

[00:16:19] do. And the sales team will

[00:16:21] be going, you know, going

[00:16:22] to do what they've been told

[00:16:23] to do. But are they

[00:16:24] listening to the customer?

[00:16:26] Are they doing enough research

[00:16:28] on what it is that the

[00:16:29] customer really wants?

[00:16:30] Have they listened?

[00:16:31] Can they validate the fact

[00:16:32] that they've listened?

[00:16:33] And in more cases than not,

[00:16:35] I think I would say that

[00:16:37] they don't.

[00:16:38] Now, Dan, I want to ask you

[00:16:39] about the this may be the

[00:16:40] wrong time here, but you have

[00:16:42] a service offering called

[00:16:43] the mirror. Is this the right

[00:16:44] time to be talking about that?

[00:16:46] Yeah. I mean, so typically

[00:16:48] technology companies, they

[00:16:50] think they listen to their

[00:16:51] customers well enough and

[00:16:53] they really don't.

[00:16:54] What you tend to find is

[00:16:55] that a lot of the messaging,

[00:16:57] a lot of the go to market,

[00:16:58] a lot of the strategy tends to

[00:16:59] be written by a few people in

[00:17:01] a room and it's not

[00:17:02] necessarily validated by

[00:17:04] what the market wants or

[00:17:06] what the customer really wants.

[00:17:07] It's about what they think

[00:17:08] the customer wants, but

[00:17:10] without a lot of proof points.

[00:17:13] And what you tend to get

[00:17:14] is we have a thing called

[00:17:15] the five second message test,

[00:17:17] which this is sort of where

[00:17:18] we begin with people, I

[00:17:19] guess, where you line up

[00:17:20] four or five different

[00:17:21] competitors of companies and

[00:17:23] you just look at the

[00:17:23] websites, the home page is

[00:17:25] all, you know, what are

[00:17:26] the headline messages?

[00:17:28] And if you go to a sub

[00:17:29] sector, so if you go to the AI

[00:17:30] and you look at the big system

[00:17:31] integrators and the

[00:17:32] consultancies, what is

[00:17:34] their messaging around AI?

[00:17:35] And you could go do it now.

[00:17:37] It's horrendous, right?

[00:17:39] They they're not differentiated.

[00:17:41] Yeah, there's no value

[00:17:42] messaging there.

[00:17:43] They look exactly the same as

[00:17:45] each other. There's a weird

[00:17:46] aspiration of messages, but

[00:17:47] very little value, very few

[00:17:48] proof points and a company

[00:17:50] that's well positioned and

[00:17:51] well messaged.

[00:17:52] You can understand as an

[00:17:53] exec what they do very

[00:17:54] quickly. You don't have to

[00:17:55] work hard. You know, it's

[00:17:57] inclusive.

[00:17:58] It's not exclusive to just the

[00:17:59] tech world. It's inclusive to

[00:18:01] the business world.

[00:18:02] Yes.

[00:18:02] It's positioned in a smart

[00:18:04] way. So you go, yeah, we

[00:18:05] need a bit of that, right?

[00:18:06] We haven't done that within

[00:18:07] five seconds effectively.

[00:18:08] Yeah, with the five second

[00:18:09] effect, right? You go, bam,

[00:18:10] it's done and the proof

[00:18:12] points are there. And it's

[00:18:13] and it's not only words.

[00:18:14] It's visual. It's what is

[00:18:15] your brain interpreting from

[00:18:17] that? And what's the

[00:18:17] message that's coming

[00:18:18] through from what you see?

[00:18:20] And most companies will put

[00:18:21] a picture of some, you

[00:18:22] know, some skyscrapers up

[00:18:24] with an aspirational

[00:18:25] message about, you know, we're

[00:18:26] going to make the world

[00:18:27] better. And and and that's

[00:18:29] kind of as far as it goes.

[00:18:31] And then you've got to kind

[00:18:31] of work really hard to figure

[00:18:33] out what they do. Yes.

[00:18:34] So the mirror really is a

[00:18:36] program that goes out and

[00:18:37] we interview clients.

[00:18:38] We do it on Zoom.

[00:18:39] You know, we go out and

[00:18:40] talk to the big the big

[00:18:41] so we work with like footsie

[00:18:42] fortune companies, the big

[00:18:43] guys. We go out and smaller

[00:18:45] companies too. But the point

[00:18:46] being you go and talk to

[00:18:48] the buyer and you

[00:18:49] fart. You ask them what

[00:18:50] they want. What do they

[00:18:52] like about this company?

[00:18:53] If they know the more they

[00:18:53] work with them already?

[00:18:54] What don't they like?

[00:18:56] And what are they where are

[00:18:57] the opportunities?

[00:18:57] And it's sort of those four

[00:18:58] questions plus a bunch of

[00:18:59] other things that we put in

[00:19:00] there as well.

[00:19:01] And you come back with 20

[00:19:02] minutes of a client or a

[00:19:04] customer or a CIO talking

[00:19:06] about you, what they want

[00:19:08] from you, what they don't

[00:19:09] like from you, what they

[00:19:10] need for you to do.

[00:19:11] And you can't get that from

[00:19:12] any survey.

[00:19:13] Right. Every every one of

[00:19:14] course did a survey last

[00:19:15] year. Like you cannot

[00:19:18] get the value of what

[00:19:19] someone is saying from a

[00:19:20] survey than you would, you

[00:19:21] know, from a buyer who

[00:19:22] spends 100 million hundreds

[00:19:24] of millions of dollars a

[00:19:24] year on technology or

[00:19:26] whatever it is.

[00:19:27] You can't get that from a

[00:19:27] survey. If you see that

[00:19:29] face, that person talking

[00:19:31] for 20 minutes about you,

[00:19:32] that is sales enablement

[00:19:34] gold dust. Right.

[00:19:36] So the first thing is we

[00:19:37] gather all of those, you

[00:19:39] know, it might be five, it

[00:19:40] might be 20. It doesn't

[00:19:41] really matter. But the

[00:19:42] point is you're getting

[00:19:44] proper feedback.

[00:19:45] Right.

[00:19:46] He then talked to the

[00:19:47] team, the execs, but

[00:19:48] also the wider team of

[00:19:50] the company that's

[00:19:50] trying to sell something.

[00:19:51] He asked them, So what do

[00:19:52] you think you do? What do

[00:19:53] you think your value

[00:19:54] proposition is? What do you

[00:19:55] want to be? How do you

[00:19:56] want to differentiate?

[00:19:57] What would you buy? You

[00:19:58] know, aspirations,

[00:19:59] contribution, blah, blah,

[00:20:00] blah. And you've got to

[00:20:01] kind of work out where the

[00:20:03] misalignment is as well in

[00:20:04] that because, you know, some

[00:20:05] guys over here are pulling

[00:20:06] in this direction. Often

[00:20:08] the sales guys have a

[00:20:09] very strong opinion because

[00:20:10] they talk to the

[00:20:10] customers, the exact

[00:20:11] opinion because they talk

[00:20:12] to the investors and

[00:20:13] they've made promises.

[00:20:14] The team have been the

[00:20:16] product team have got

[00:20:17] ideas, but they're

[00:20:18] different, necessary, you

[00:20:19] know, not that they

[00:20:19] might be different from

[00:20:20] the other and the marketing

[00:20:21] team, you know, it could

[00:20:22] be it could go either way

[00:20:23] with any of them. But

[00:20:24] the point being, you know,

[00:20:26] if you don't look at

[00:20:27] everything from that

[00:20:28] customer perspective and

[00:20:29] bring it back and compare

[00:20:30] it, you haven't got a

[00:20:31] point of truth to align

[00:20:33] things to. And and so

[00:20:35] therefore, you know,

[00:20:37] that's why there are so

[00:20:38] many arguments and people

[00:20:39] don't go in the right

[00:20:39] direction. And finally,

[00:20:41] as I say, you have to

[00:20:42] look at the competitors

[00:20:43] and how they're

[00:20:43] positioning and generally

[00:20:44] in B2B it's very poor.

[00:20:46] So there is a huge

[00:20:47] opportunity to differentiate

[00:20:49] and make yourself

[00:20:49] different purely by using

[00:20:52] easy to understand

[00:20:53] language, you know, just

[00:20:54] to start with but actually

[00:20:56] thinking about the first

[00:20:57] two points of the customer

[00:20:58] and the team and what

[00:20:59] you want to be, etc.

[00:21:00] in the USPs and then

[00:21:02] figuring out, OK, well,

[00:21:03] no one else is doing this.

[00:21:03] Why don't we do it this

[00:21:04] way? So the mirror

[00:21:06] kind of brings together

[00:21:07] all of that and gives

[00:21:07] you what I guess a brand

[00:21:09] category or brand position.

[00:21:11] And then you can start

[00:21:12] to see, right, well,

[00:21:12] we've been selling

[00:21:13] this way. What's

[00:21:14] been working there

[00:21:15] and what hasn't and you

[00:21:16] get into the sort of

[00:21:17] the performance side

[00:21:18] of things too.

[00:21:19] So it brings out a lot

[00:21:21] of things that people

[00:21:23] that don't necessarily

[00:21:24] look at and don't necessarily.

[00:21:26] It's not such things.

[00:21:27] It's not always things

[00:21:28] that people want to look at

[00:21:29] either from really

[00:21:29] this because it you're

[00:21:31] lifting the bonnet on stuff

[00:21:32] that people are not

[00:21:33] necessarily comfortable

[00:21:34] with you looking at, right?

[00:21:36] Because it exposes

[00:21:37] a lot of hard truths

[00:21:39] and you're not trying

[00:21:40] to embarrass anybody,

[00:21:41] but you are trying to help

[00:21:42] them grow.

[00:21:43] And often if you want to

[00:21:44] grow, you have to be

[00:21:45] quite honest with yourself.

[00:21:45] So it's a level

[00:21:47] of honesty that

[00:21:48] a lot of companies

[00:21:49] haven't got the appetite for.

[00:21:51] Now, so

[00:21:53] when I'm talking

[00:21:55] with many of the FinTech,

[00:21:56] I feel that they're

[00:21:58] too far gone,

[00:22:00] too stressed

[00:22:02] to be considering

[00:22:04] the mirror.

[00:22:05] Yeah, I just

[00:22:06] because on Q1

[00:22:08] you're too busy.

[00:22:09] To Q1 nothing's happened.

[00:22:11] A lot of that now

[00:22:12] I need an immediate fix.

[00:22:14] Yeah, it's a strategic

[00:22:16] product, right?

[00:22:17] It's a strategic product

[00:22:18] because, you know, to deliver it,

[00:22:20] you need four, six weeks

[00:22:21] and they're going, well,

[00:22:22] we haven't got four, six weeks.

[00:22:23] You know, we need an answer now.

[00:22:25] So do something now.

[00:22:25] So clearly there is

[00:22:27] a strategic answer that

[00:22:28] you offer and then

[00:22:30] you work with customers on.

[00:22:31] Right?

[00:22:32] And some watching, listening,

[00:22:33] will get that's interesting.

[00:22:34] Say more, right?

[00:22:36] Yeah.

[00:22:36] And we'll talk about

[00:22:37] how to connect with you later on.

[00:22:38] Right.

[00:22:40] But the for those

[00:22:42] that are under immense

[00:22:44] pressure now, right?

[00:22:45] This should have been done last year.

[00:22:47] Yeah, it's easy.

[00:22:48] It's easy to point the finger

[00:22:49] and wag fingers at people.

[00:22:51] Right?

[00:22:52] What would you recommend

[00:22:53] for FinTech now,

[00:22:55] the CEO,

[00:22:57] BizDev, Hedercels, whatever

[00:22:59] what actions could they be taking?

[00:23:01] Right?

[00:23:01] If I had no conversation,

[00:23:02] none.

[00:23:03] Yeah.

[00:23:03] Right?

[00:23:04] So they're in it at the minute

[00:23:06] and we don't have that

[00:23:08] opportunity at the minute

[00:23:09] to to to to be strategic then.

[00:23:11] How would you?

[00:23:12] What would you recommend?

[00:23:13] I've just done this.

[00:23:14] OK, so

[00:23:15] right.

[00:23:16] Research is an incredible door opener.

[00:23:19] Research is an incredible way

[00:23:20] of engaging people

[00:23:21] in a non-threatening way

[00:23:22] without trying to sell to them.

[00:23:24] You know, try to find out

[00:23:25] what people are interested in

[00:23:27] and what they think

[00:23:27] and asking their advice.

[00:23:30] If you ask someone

[00:23:31] for 10 minutes of their advice on X,

[00:23:34] you you a lot of people

[00:23:35] will give you 10 minutes

[00:23:36] to talk about what they think about X.

[00:23:39] Yes.

[00:23:40] True engagement is very interesting.

[00:23:42] You know, so if you say like,

[00:23:43] look, you know, we've got a FinTech.

[00:23:45] We've got a payments platform, for example.

[00:23:47] I mean, I'm working with the investment platform

[00:23:49] at the moment.

[00:23:49] They had exactly the same challenge.

[00:23:51] They've got a product

[00:23:52] which was it's really good product,

[00:23:54] but it does a number of things

[00:23:56] and product market fit was question one.

[00:23:59] Audience was you know,

[00:24:00] question two is part of that, I guess.

[00:24:01] And then three was how do we drive engagement

[00:24:05] and we got the first two right

[00:24:07] pretty quickly by, you know,

[00:24:08] talking to the market doing the mirror, etc.

[00:24:10] But they needed to move it along quickly.

[00:24:12] Right.

[00:24:12] And but what they wanted to get to is,

[00:24:15] you know, how do we engage our customers?

[00:24:17] How do we find out?

[00:24:19] So we basically just been working

[00:24:21] on a very simple research project with them

[00:24:23] where we started asking the bit,

[00:24:25] you know, the market,

[00:24:26] you know, would you like,

[00:24:28] what do you think of this product?

[00:24:29] Is this useful if you had this sort of product?

[00:24:30] What would you want?

[00:24:31] And then they gradually start to take over that.

[00:24:34] And as they start to take over it,

[00:24:35] they said, well, hang on,

[00:24:36] we know people in this market.

[00:24:38] We've spoken to these guys.

[00:24:39] Why don't we just ask this?

[00:24:40] And so they'd phone them and start asking.

[00:24:42] And we, you know, we'd built a kind of a whole,

[00:24:43] you know, checklist of things they needed to ask.

[00:24:45] And gradually they got independent of the checklist

[00:24:48] and started having the conversations themselves.

[00:24:50] Right.

[00:24:50] I mean, their target is, you know,

[00:24:52] they've got to do quite, you know,

[00:24:54] a number of sales before the end of H1,

[00:24:57] before they end up Q2.

[00:24:58] Right.

[00:24:59] And it's working, right?

[00:25:00] It's working really well.

[00:25:02] So in January, we,

[00:25:05] and I'm sorry to labour this,

[00:25:06] but in January, we,

[00:25:07] we, the FinTech, right?

[00:25:09] I'm modelling them, right?

[00:25:10] Role playing them.

[00:25:11] We send out all these emails.

[00:25:13] We've got our Zoom in for premium subscription, right?

[00:25:16] To try and get every's emails and phone numbers everything.

[00:25:19] And we've flogged that, right?

[00:25:20] We really, and we've got nowhere.

[00:25:23] So are you saying we should now flog it again, Dan,

[00:25:25] and just say hi?

[00:25:26] Help, we need to give us 10 minutes of your...

[00:25:29] I mean, the first place to start,

[00:25:31] and believe it or not,

[00:25:32] a lot of companies don't do this.

[00:25:34] And then there might be that they don't have any,

[00:25:35] but a lot of companies have more relationships

[00:25:37] than they think.

[00:25:38] So the first thing to do is get everyone in the room.

[00:25:40] Right.

[00:25:41] And you might want to hire one or two or three advisors

[00:25:44] at this point if you don't know anybody.

[00:25:46] It's advisors who know the community,

[00:25:48] who've got the relationships,

[00:25:49] who are trusted and who can open doors.

[00:25:52] And you've got to bring everybody into a room,

[00:25:53] into a workshop that basically says,

[00:25:55] right, we want to talk to people about this.

[00:25:58] We just need to listen to start with.

[00:26:00] The first point of any conversation is listening, right?

[00:26:02] And most companies just want to tell people what they do.

[00:26:06] And I think in order,

[00:26:08] if you think about the CRM

[00:26:10] and you think about the sales process at the moment,

[00:26:12] everybody wants to sort of run this software as a service

[00:26:15] automated sales process

[00:26:17] where you get leads coming in through funnels, right?

[00:26:19] When you talk about Zoom info, it's same sort of thing.

[00:26:21] Can I automate 1,000 emails

[00:26:23] to go out to really highly intelligent people

[00:26:25] who are going to click on a thing

[00:26:26] that they can clearly see has been automated

[00:26:28] and buy something from me?

[00:26:29] Never. It will not work.

[00:26:31] It might have worked 10 years ago.

[00:26:32] It won't because it was a novelty,

[00:26:33] but everyone sees through it right now.

[00:26:35] The most important column in your pipeline

[00:26:39] is the nurture column, right?

[00:26:40] And that could be the nurtures of people

[00:26:42] who've registered in interest,

[00:26:44] who you've already met,

[00:26:45] who you know already or you might be selling to,

[00:26:47] but those nurture columns,

[00:26:48] whether there's one or two,

[00:26:50] they are your community.

[00:26:52] And most companies don't,

[00:26:54] well not most actually,

[00:26:55] a lot of companies don't bother

[00:26:57] using them to the full potential

[00:26:59] and running a community.

[00:27:00] They're not buying today, they're not buying today then.

[00:27:01] So what do we care?

[00:27:02] So here's the point.

[00:27:05] If you're a small company

[00:27:06] and you have a thousand interested

[00:27:09] or nurtures in that community,

[00:27:13] you have no idea when they're gonna want something.

[00:27:15] You have no control in terms of

[00:27:17] when a B2B buyer wants something.

[00:27:18] And I'll talk about the buying cycle in a minute

[00:27:20] or the year of buying.

[00:27:22] But the point is if you've got a thousand in there,

[00:27:25] there's a good chance five or 10% will fall out

[00:27:28] at any one point with demand, with requests.

[00:27:31] If you don't have that volume of nurtures

[00:27:34] and that's what you should be focusing on.

[00:27:35] It's not the leads, it's the nurtures

[00:27:36] where the activity is.

[00:27:39] You're gonna have real trouble.

[00:27:40] So filling up the nurture list,

[00:27:43] the way you do that is you've got to get some advisors

[00:27:45] in who've got the relationships.

[00:27:46] Because this is all about being trusted,

[00:27:48] being welcome, being expert and driving engagement,

[00:27:51] not just being seen as the ultimate geek.

[00:27:54] We can solve these problems, we're brilliant at it.

[00:27:56] Well so what?

[00:27:57] I've got no interest in knowing about that

[00:27:59] unless I understand it solves a specific problem

[00:28:02] in my business in either cost, risk or growth.

[00:28:05] One of those three things and I need to know

[00:28:06] exactly how it's gonna do that very quickly.

[00:28:09] So you're saying, I was liking as well,

[00:28:12] you're saying bring everyone together.

[00:28:14] I've done this a few times with FinTech

[00:28:16] with the, we don't know anybody.

[00:28:18] We don't know anyone in Paris.

[00:28:19] Right, and it's okay, we must not,

[00:28:21] okay everyone together, the sales marketing,

[00:28:23] even the engineers, right?

[00:28:24] Okay guys, come on, come on.

[00:28:25] Who do we know in France?

[00:28:27] Turns out we forgot we've got a customer in France.

[00:28:29] Yeah.

[00:28:30] Okay, right, so we've got a customer in France.

[00:28:31] Okay, so could we invite them to a round table meeting?

[00:28:35] Right, and could they speak, right?

[00:28:37] And then, oh my brother, okay good, right,

[00:28:39] okay so we've got some warm connections, right?

[00:28:41] Do we know, what about the ambassador?

[00:28:43] Right, we can phone out and use the country's ambassador.

[00:28:45] Okay, to try and create that,

[00:28:48] you know, were you suggesting bringing the team together

[00:28:52] and looking at the relationships you've already got?

[00:28:55] Yeah, I mean that in my opinion

[00:28:57] is what CRM tries to do in a technology way

[00:29:01] but fails miserably because if you don't have

[00:29:02] that team effort going on, you know,

[00:29:05] and those teams meeting and talking

[00:29:07] and actually exchanging the information

[00:29:09] about who they know and what the strengths

[00:29:11] those relationships are and who said what

[00:29:13] and then the marketing team going,

[00:29:14] well we actually tried this topic

[00:29:16] and we've got 60% engagement on X

[00:29:17] and you know, that kind of stand up,

[00:29:22] that type of stand up is the most important thing

[00:29:24] you can do if you want to grow your business

[00:29:26] because in the sense of B2B,

[00:29:29] if you're going at things from that sort of digital lead gen

[00:29:32] automated zoom info stuff, you're gonna get hammered,

[00:29:37] you know, unless you've got something transactional

[00:29:38] to sell like I say.

[00:29:39] No, that's the thing,

[00:29:41] many financial technology companies are selling to banks,

[00:29:45] it's 12 months minimum lead time.

[00:29:47] It's trust.

[00:29:48] It's absolutely trust.

[00:29:50] Right?

[00:29:51] But I see them doing it that digital way basically.

[00:29:56] They're trying and the point about the goalpost shifting

[00:29:58] is over COVID that sort of worked to a point,

[00:30:00] you know, people had to move their marketing efforts

[00:30:03] into digital because they couldn't do events.

[00:30:06] Events are now back on but equally,

[00:30:09] you know, trust never went anywhere.

[00:30:11] Trust has always been the thing

[00:30:12] and relationships have always been the thing.

[00:30:13] So for me, you know, for any company I'm working with

[00:30:17] I'm always thinking right, who are your advisors?

[00:30:19] If you don't know your people,

[00:30:20] who's your advisory board?

[00:30:22] You know, who've you gotten that advisory board

[00:30:23] because they should be doing that heavy lifting for you

[00:30:26] and advise, you know,

[00:30:27] you don't need to pay a lot of money

[00:30:28] for an advisory board either.

[00:30:30] I mean, you know, you can hire advisors

[00:30:32] for a grand a month each or something,

[00:30:34] you know, just a day a month or whatever it is.

[00:30:37] It's not a lot of money,

[00:30:39] but the prestige of that for those guys

[00:30:41] and the, you know, keeping those guys in the game

[00:30:44] is something that they're really interested in as well.

[00:30:47] I think it's really,

[00:30:49] it's a very underused tool, the advisory board.

[00:30:52] That now, I mean, you're speaking

[00:30:54] to the converted here, right?

[00:30:54] So I've been banging on about advisory boards

[00:30:57] for the longest time.

[00:30:59] What I'd like to do here though, Dan,

[00:31:01] is because I'd like to ask you to come back

[00:31:04] and talk to us about advisory

[00:31:05] and especially I'd like,

[00:31:09] could you talk to us about the sales cycle as well?

[00:31:12] I'd like to come back, all right?

[00:31:13] And that's because I want to know,

[00:31:15] if you don't mind,

[00:31:16] I want to really focus people's attention

[00:31:18] and look, okay, you said a lot here, Dan,

[00:31:20] a lot of the, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[00:31:22] How do I engage you, right?

[00:31:23] I've got this problem.

[00:31:25] I've got this problem.

[00:31:25] I need some help and I need tactical right now, tactical.

[00:31:29] Maybe the strategy later on perhaps, right?

[00:31:31] But tactically what you just said,

[00:31:33] how do I get that?

[00:31:35] How do I buy that?

[00:31:35] How do I engage with you?

[00:31:36] And how do I contact you?

[00:31:39] Well, I mean, telejo.com

[00:31:41] or just dan at telejo.com

[00:31:43] is how you get hold of me immediately.

[00:31:45] And then how do you tend to work?

[00:31:48] Do you work in our advisor, retainery,

[00:31:50] retainer approach or project?

[00:31:52] It kind of depends where companies are coming from,

[00:31:54] but typically speaking, you know,

[00:31:57] they know they've got a problem.

[00:31:58] Often they know what it is potentially,

[00:32:00] but there are gaps in the information.

[00:32:02] So we've got to fill in those gaps as quickly as possible.

[00:32:04] But I think, you know, getting them,

[00:32:07] the most important thing for any company

[00:32:08] is to be engaging in the right way with their customers,

[00:32:10] right?

[00:32:11] And so it's how can you shorten that path

[00:32:13] to that journey and how can you get them out?

[00:32:16] You could even start engaging today,

[00:32:18] you know, with the right kind of content,

[00:32:21] but is it going in the right direction?

[00:32:23] Is the team behind it more importantly?

[00:32:25] If your team's not behind it

[00:32:26] and you're just doing it as an add-on,

[00:32:28] you know, that someone's got a random idea,

[00:32:30] hey, we're gonna kick this off now.

[00:32:32] It won't work.

[00:32:32] You've got to take people on that journey.

[00:32:34] And I mean, again, this is why CRM doesn't work

[00:32:36] a lot of times because someone comes along

[00:32:38] with a bright idea of,

[00:32:40] hey, we're gonna put CRM in

[00:32:41] and they stuff it into a company

[00:32:43] and no one uses it

[00:32:45] because they don't want to do the work.

[00:32:47] It's a lot of work, right?

[00:32:48] You've just basically increased the workload of people

[00:32:52] who don't wanna change the way they do things

[00:32:53] because they're hitting targets, right?

[00:32:55] So, you know, like I say,

[00:32:59] the first thing in my world is always to try

[00:33:02] and get people together

[00:33:03] and listen to what the company,

[00:33:05] the client really needs from different perspectives.

[00:33:10] But just listen.

[00:33:11] If you don't listen,

[00:33:13] you're not gonna find out what the challenge really is.

[00:33:16] And often what they think the challenge is

[00:33:17] isn't necessarily either.

[00:33:18] So you've got to really understand that too.

[00:33:20] So a listing exercise would be step number one, Ewan.

[00:33:23] Right, okay.

[00:33:24] And then you're also available on LinkedIn as well, I trust.

[00:33:28] I'm on LinkedIn.

[00:33:29] I'll put it in the show notes.

[00:33:31] Right, Dan, let's stop it there

[00:33:34] because there's more I wanna talk to you about

[00:33:36] but in terms of this particular episode,

[00:33:37] let's stop now.

[00:33:38] Thank you so much for taking the time.

[00:33:40] It's tolleazio.com.

[00:33:41] I'll put the details in the show notes.

[00:33:43] Thanks for taking the time, Dan.

[00:33:44] Thank you, cheers.